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The Green Lion Podcast
The Green Lion Podcast

Episode · 3 weeks ago

The Ufology Tarot

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Ufology Tarot Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ufotarot/the-ufology-tarot 

Today I am joined by Red Pill Junkie and Josh Cutchin, two of the five creative folks working on the Ufology Tarot. This tarot deck that blends the history of Ufology and its most notable people with the archetypal symbols that have shown up time and time again in the lives and experiences of Ufology's best. You can check out their Kickstarter, a campaign to fund the first 22 cards of the deck, the Major Arcana, here, until November 31st. Pre-order your copy of the deck today! And consider pledging for the coffee table book as well.

Miguel:

https://www.dailygrail.com 

https://absurdbydesign.wordpress.com/

Joshua Cutchin:

https://www.joshuacutchin.com 

You can find both of these wonderful guys on "Where Did the Road Go?"

https://www.wheredidtheroadgo.com

The rest of the team are also doing incredible things on the internet:

Radio Misterioso 

Susan Demeter 

David Metcalfe

I'm not going to be able to give you ananswer. Nothing can be understood in last. Itis simultaneously viewed as both being what it is and what it is not if yougot to stop and think about it to really get the play about the complex,inconcevable nature of nature. You have no one. I have no want not what all wegoing to do. So we on see what you do. Green Lion, podcast, exploring thephilosophy of the strange one question at a time, I'm your host Taylor Bell. Welcome back to the Green Line podcasttoday I am sitting down with Joshua, cutchin and Redfield Junkie to talkabout your guys new project, the EUPHOLUS. What's going on, I guess: Hey! THAT'S A GOIN! Welcome! Welcome to this little experiment. I guess I'mstill learning about recording with skype and everything that I have tried has failed.So we're we're just going to do it this way andhope that it works. We may be recording this for the ether yeah Yep, but by error you know I mean like with theproject. This is our first campaign and it could have been you know. Atotal wreck luckily hasn't been the case. So far no come home. Fuckin wouldabsolutely no use yeah. You guys launch akickstarter, so it's the two of you. It's also Greg Bishop David Meccas andSusan Demiter, I'm not mistaken, so the five of you guys are kind of behindthis. Eupholus is something I'm personally a very excited about, andthat's why I want to talk to you about it here. We actually just talked whereo the road go not too long ago. I think that show just dropped this week. IfI'm not mistaken or maybe last week, something like that, but back then you guys could not hityour goal. You had just launched it. We recorded that the day you launched,which was Halloween and today as we're, recording this on November. Twelfth you guys have passedyour goal. You passed it a couple days ago, you're at sixteen thousand eighthundred and fifty eight dollars with a hundred and eighty seven backers, andyou have more than two weeks left you to yeah. I had always thought thatit was going to do well because Teroeni or don't want save with that they'rebrilliant Tobe, but I've seen plenty of them funded right, but I had no ideathat I had no idea that it was going to be funded this enthusiastically as thisquickly. It's really been the humbling and absolutely I guess I was just going to ask likewhat. What are your feelings about that you o clearly just answered a big partof that, but do wars their trepidation was theiranxiety going into this project? Was it excitement? Were you feeling for sure I mean I remember I in college,one of my teachers called me pessimist Mirth, because that's my nature. You know I amalmost a you know: glass, half empty kind of a kind of guy,always expecting the wars always expecting. You know the building anddesigning to collapse. The computer, the computer, nor walking to crash- andI remember when breakfast suggested this project to Ithink I want to say that he first asked told me about- is about this privatelyfirst in one of our, you know conversations in saying. I like that,and then he suggested it to the whole group subsequently, and everybody said YeahYeah and at the first I was, I don't know if I can do it, I don't know ifI'll be able, if I have a cessary chaps artistically, you know and knowledge wise design to pull it off. Greg is very good at at persuations, sohe kept insisting on I say: Well, okay, Tanit I'll do one you know I mean is is to itis a total reckon. If I really feel I can do it in then all be it. You know,keep find someone else. So the first...

...guard that I ever made made was themagician Jack Wallet, which was by the way you know like to all of us involved in the in thegroup that that were like. Yes, of course, that's the real logical,ological selection. So I did that shatter yeah and people, for I remember telling do you recognizewho that is- and I said, Yeah Jack Polls- okay to you know, because Ireally struggled trying to get that that likeness of the face, as I I Icould. I couldn't find any good. You Know Reference Portos of Jacque infront in a front you from from that Eeyou know in the S or s when he wasyounger, and I did my best and the guys thought that my best was good enoughand then I said: okay, we okay, you know, let's, let's go with this andthen it was as a matter of of of me, toiling by myself alone during my weekends anddoing man, you know three hours, which is almost like anoxymoron if you're a freeland artis, because you don't have three hours, youknow free Limanowa, yeah we're like sharks, you know, if you stop swimmingyou round, you know. If you stop, you know doing commissions or projects. Youjust you know, start getting in depth because you don't have any any anyincome. You know to support yourself. So that's when there was a time when Iactually like put my food on the on the ground- and I told you guys maybe tooforcefully look at you know. Either we gone with this project I'll make a contain to financial, tofinance it or, let's you know, let's stop kidding ourselves and you know,let's call the folk with the whole thing off, and this was kind of a harshultimatum, but I paid it paid off because Greg finally decided get tostart crunching the obverse to start checking that he the crowd, funding,platforms, available. The differences between kickstarter and in the go go,go found me, and you tell her. You are someone who has already gone throughthis, because you design also a Taro deck through a crowd funding campaign.Now there self a lot of a lot of things that you mean really need to check outis it can be very, very intimute. You know the study to navigate through thatmorass of rules and that advice in the commendation so could to could of toGreg that he actually might absolutely welden started doing it. A couple yearsago I was, I had the great fortune of having some friends who had already hadsuccessful campaigns so and also campaigns that had failed, and I thinkthe valuable thing to take away from that was what worked, what didn't work,and you know kind of using that as a spring board from what I understand,the stuff that you guys were doing this stuff, that Greg was doing and settingthis up was all stuff that he learned. You know autototototo on the Internetand like doing the research and figuring things out for himself andclearly you know it worked yeah and also that we have come to anarrangement or some kind of like understanding between the five of usthat, in order to the campaign to ensure that the campaign would besuccessful, I needed to finish at least four of the cards. You know, I rememberI think was Josh saying you know I I, with with a Telecom Panis that hechecked on the Internet. He says you know allthis. All these campaigns, the ones that were successful, is because theyshow to the to the potential backers thatthey could put it off and they showed a lot of art work pro proof of concept.Yeah. Yes, exactly so so greg at first okay, how many cars should we do atfirst? I said: Okay me with three and then an Greg said no, let's go with foryou know, because I also remember the because the first two were men writethe magician the emperor, Jacque Waller, jailing, Hanak, and then I went withthe lovers Badian Burnie Heel Greg said you know: let's go with a car in which the protonic is a woman, so we're wontwith strength and Rafle showing the mouth of Philip classes this. You knowcoward lion of the wizards of us and...

...once I managed to finish that that oneand that's when I told the guys, okay, you know like there's no more excusesfor my, and you know I did my part and now it starts for you guys to start toindure magic and they did, and there was a bit of setbacks logistically,because some people I have other things goingon and grey, also had a lot of things on his plate, and then he also took atrip, broth and then finally were like, which date do we pick. Weneed to speak a date and we need to stick to the day, no matter what andGreg say. Okay, let's go with Halloween and I was saying yeah. Okay, great, youknow that's perfect date and after he also completed this promovideo using his video editing skills and also using the music that MassimoSusan's husband kindly allow us to use in in order to make it more flashing, make it moreinteresting and also getting all these quotes normally from valet and woodlyriver, but also from other people in the, in the view of Ful Forte panormscene, that I respect greck and then a new Cork, John Al Tenny, Michael andHughes, I showed them the cards, and that was another moment in which Istarted to feel more rear. Sure that I hadn't wasted. You know hours and hoursof my time doing this for nothing. You know they wasn't just going to be somekind of like ultra niche project. I only like a handful of widows. We wantto get, and then probably will we will. We will either like put it on thedrawer or maybe you know, Greg would have just paid for t for the wholekingfish. He really was adamant. You know that he wanted to see it in the MAI mean we, I mean to be clear, like we're all collectively a handle ofWeirdos right yea like yeah, is the world. You were worried. It was a small groupof Weirdos, exactly no, no, no, no there's, there's a very large group ofweirds out there and you know. I think that idea of, like you know, maybe itwould just be like a kitchy thing and people put in their drawer and notreally do much with it, whereas I think what what you're aiming for what youguys and I think what Greg was aiming for with a project like this is tocreate some kind of a tool that people can use to kind of approach orunderstand this field in a different way in a more intuitive way in and justto sort of experiment and kind of get creative with the like the modality,you know, rather than just looking at textbooks or you know, EncyclopediasYeah. If I could interject you know e. If you look, if you go looking for theUFO Tero, there is an existing. U Potero out there. That is not what we're dealing with. This isspecifically ethology, Taro and in some ways I'm not because I know some peoplewho have that US Otero and they love it and it has its own own charm for sure, but in some ways I think it's kind ofif you're really approaching the phenomena on its own terms and nottrying to graft this. You know o one thousand nine hundred and fiftyScifi veneer on it. I kind of don't think it's a good idea to have a UFOterror right. I mean because there's certain assumptions that come into itwhen you're trying to depict like grays and hybrids and all this stuff,whereas if you do, if you're approaching it from the angle of thepholoe Tero, it's more about like these are these are the things that peoplehave thought it is over. At least the phenomena is over the years which itmay or may not be, but it's more of an accurate reading that you sort of havea some degree of control over in terms of the ICONOGRAPHY, I think yeah. Well.So the fact that in that other other previous examples of UOTA OS, thephenomenon is kind of like the Proteles, whereas I really feel in now project the people who have studied thephenomenon are the potions and the phenomenon itself kind. Like takes aback seat. You know we're focusing on the people who have devoted their lives,trying to understand the phenomenon trying to come up with ives and sharingthe IDs with the world, and sometimes those ideas have a real impact in ourculture. Take, for example, galling Hainich our emperor, the man who cointhe term close encounters of the third kind, and I dare you I'm sure there are.There- is not a single person in the Planett who doesn't understand whatclose encounters of the third king men.

So that's kind of like the impact thatthese people have had not only euthales what in culture at large, and I feelthat that is what we were trying to focus on and to honor. Oh Yeah Yeah. Definitely- and I thinkhonestly, I think you hit it right on the head, because you know there's a lot of reasons Ilike to stick and I apologize it that you know it sound like I'm just geekingout over this steck over and over again, but there's a lot to geek out over here,you're really putting together, something's very special, and Isincerely mean that and part of the reason that I mean that is, you know,like you mentioned with with the Ufo Tero, that they're focusing theirprotagonist, is sort of the phenomenon. T self and they're really looking atthat through the lens of it being extra terrestrial there they're taking thiskind of you know, hard stance of you know like Josh was saying this sort ofsci fi bend and looking at these, these ufosreally is, as it should be called. I think the Alien Terro personally, but the other thing that I think sets thisapart from not just that terror, but a lot of other pterodactyle. That kind of venture offinto their own themes is that you're actually taking a lot of care inaligning the cards and the images with the sort of classical depictions thatare found in the Ridere, which you know. I don't always read the rider weight. Itis it's one of the kind of three decks that I put on the table for people tochoose. I'm a tough guy myself, but there'sthere's really something to be said about the simplicity of the way thatthose cards are laid out and the symbols that are on them and thepositions of the people are in. You know it tells a story, that's souniquely Terro and and this deck that you guys are making is doing justice tothat is doing honor to that that concept- and you know something. Obviously you can line up the theimages you can line up, shack, fillet standing like the magician and put hisarms. You know in the right positions and stuff, but I think more than thatyou know in the magician card, especially like having having thelittle imp or like the Little Goblin. You know hiding her to the table,that's something! Obviously it's not like directly on. You know the writer weight card, butthat's something that really brings about that. That kind of mercurialaspect that sort of trick Tory point of the that is both a part of thephenomena that we're talking about here. That has played a role in thesepeople's lives as they've been you know, studying and trying to understand thisphenomenon, and that plays a huge role in the magician card of the terro. Thewhole point of the magician card. You know in terms of the symbol, nature ofit is mercury. It is being that kind of you know capricious like quick silver kind of trickster. Among many many other things which Ithink you know you do a good Javita uring. Thank you but yeah, exactly like yousaid there. I guess one of to be honest. Oneof the reasons why we chose to base the cards in the riter wait isbecause it's probably the most recognizable deck outdoor special, theForlan, like I get myself and Josh Greg and shoot Susan, a probably the onesthat are more knowledgeable about Taro specialises because she's a witch andshe walks with yeah Taron on no regular vases, but also like later on one once we start working withthis and we starting really getting into the neneter of deciding the themesof the cards and and what should be on the cards. I think we all realize that ethology isso chuck full of symbols, just full of things that are as potentand powerful as the symbology that you writered chose to use in their car. Sothey were were like saying: Okay we're using than as a reference, but we areusing the symbols of like our trive. You knowour drive of people who are into ufos and to so that's why? In the magicianscard, I need to put a telescope in the right hand of my magician point intothe sky, and I also need to use a floppy disk on his left hand, pointinto the earth, and also the AV well with the Floppydis, is made of siliconright where you get the silicon to...

...create those well okay in years on, allthose things you know all those things that start to cook and sometimes tillsometimes those symbols are totally out of my control, and this issomething the judge can attest to that. For example, when I was working on thestrength card- and I show the guys one of the preliminary versions of it,you know, while I was still working on it and show in my advance, Ithink jog was the first time to say he did you deliberately put that largecandle behind an draws like what can were you talking about? I realized. Oh,it's like there is behind her in the scenery and the backgound teriswaterfall, yes, and a top of that because be not because I actuallydecided that, because I was using a reference photo from the t e t jungcalto Hungate that very important in the law of an drove, because it's it is avery important case that she personally investigated so in that particularphoto there re on top of that little waterfall. That is a very nice tree andmaybe the way that I that I ended up drawing the tree. If you look at with a different perspective, yes, itlooked like a candle and it was like at Damn. I didn't plan that you know andthen a just one example of others that that people, the guys, told me, Oh youwere you thinking about x when you added that to the car I were like now you know, but it's I got I did you know.That's got someone like guy in my hand, and- and I made that decision for me that yeah it was man you know well. Thefunny thing is I mean you know again. I kind of don't even remember beingbrought it on this project, like I think we have these. Have these. I havethese weekly like meetings with Greg and everyone, and I think it just oneday I just sort of looked up, and I was in the middle of a ter project because,like me go said like this: Isn't exactly my valley work, but you know I do love just the symbol, symbolism and some ofthis esoteric, nice stuff that you find you know in the quarters of ecology.But you know when we first heard about this idea, I was kind of like. Is theregoing to be enough to go on, you know, are you going to? Are you guys to bestretching things to figure out who can go on what card? Is there going to beno symbolism and no there's plenty? You know. I think I think that I meanliterally for every card we have like two or three or four people who could be the primary focus of thecard and then beyond that each of those has their own iterations of symbolismassociate with those people at that fits like there is a mirror universewhere you know where you know Migan I, with gots and Tor mere universe. Selves are doing acompletely different set of cars. That's just as just just a symbol richas this one is hmm yeah. Oh definitely, I think that that breathes a lot oflife into you know what so the symbols that you ultimately choosein this universe help to breed a lot of life into the deck in terms of whatdirection it ends up going, and I do think I mean you know, I'm a believerthat the artistic process is this divine process, and is you knowsomething that is yeah? You know it's it's more than just putting you knowpretty pictures on a computer screen or printing them out or whatever it'sthere's so much more. That goes into you know doing art you beyond. Evenjust making art but doing it, the act of creation is really you know something that can pull a lotof inspiration and a lot of potency from this sort of like archetypal. Youknow, I guess we call it the Numanus or you know the collective unconscious orwhatever you want to call it there's stuff there. I think that wants to comeout and it does that through art yeah. I totally agree. I mean yeah, it's the these things take on their sort of ownFrankenstein monster life of their own right. I mean that's, why I think at'sthis always so interesting that art is it like it's kind of why I'm alwaysalways been a death of the artist person like you that can sort of informyour interpretation of it, but these things tap into an archetype that goesin directions that the creators have no idea of yeah, absolutely, AH, exactlyyeah. I...

...think I remember tweeting something youknow the other day to the effect that was like half joking happen. Serials,like you, seen, Harriot the helbo universe as a metaphor saying to everyartist every work of art. They do is kind of like a horror crux. You knowlike this little thing in which you have a piece of your soul. You know-and I really think more so in this project than any other things that Iever done in my life, because I been interested in Ufos all of my life. Youknow this since I was since I was a kid. The first time I saw it, I such eestralclose encounters of a third kind or grabbed a book about encinas on ATS,from one of my uncle's library or so Himano and TV. You know this issomething that's always been a part of myself and and and then that part ofmyself was at odds with the other part of myself. That needed to you know,have a regular career in order to make aleaving or to you, like you know, to Litli. Have your mark in the worldlike, like your fat, your parents always hope for, and this is like thechance in which my two passions in life, which are you know, art and the ufophenomenon, are colliding the most intimately and the most profound. Youknow I mean like I, I have designed covers of UF related books in the past,but it's not is nowhere near as Internet and deeply deeply personal asthis as this has been and will be in the months to come as ide. You know,immerse myself and and leave a piece of my soul in each and every one of thesecarts yeah. It is a very intimate experienceand it definitely does feel like you're. You know you're kind of investing right.You know whether you're investing your soul or your time or your energy orwhatever you're putting it into this thing and it kind of lives on in everycopy. You know that's something when I published the Sicul economy, you knowthat I didn't really expect. I didn't really. I wasn't prepared for it, but I, and because of the financialconstraints of that project, I basically ended up assembling everydeck by hand, and that was something that you know a took a very long time.I'm still not done with it, but I'm a head far enough that I don't need toworry about it right now and be really makes it feel all themore like you know it's like each one of these little boxes is sort of likemy baby, and you know in a way yeah- and I think that's the case with withreally anything whether you're building it by hand or your you know, obviouslyyou're taking the vast amount of time to create each of these images. Youreally pour over it and you, you know Nigella, I'm sure you can resonate withthis, but this sort of the the idea when you're making something whenyou're specially in design and you fiddle with it and you feddle with itand you adjust this and you put that over there and you kind of like turnthis or whatever, especially like digital design, and you get to thispoint where you're looking at it you're just looking at it and you just kind ofsit there and you don't want to really take your eyes off it. It's just like.I think it's good and you maybe you find something and your like. Do I goback and change that or is it okay? The way it is you know or whatever yeah exactly, but for me I'm at Mama,you know hopeless perfectionist. I was, I talked to oficer of the sixdegrees of junk kill podcast yesterday night, and I told her that I really Ifeel I felt I feel deeply connected to that scene in you know the Capes movie, the Avon,which replace a part of how our hues and how are huge, directed these movie health angels,which was at the time you know a really masterpiece, a very avang and breakinga lot of conventions which, alas, to feel making and and the movie shows the you know how ourhues at the premier- and everybody is just you know amazed at this movieeverybody's delighted with it. But you see the face. An the guy and the guy is cringing is, is suffering because he'sseen this Concomitante in the film that only he sees and that he, the movie andeverybody's clapping everybody's...

...cheering over his. You know calling himlike the greatest director ever. He calls his stuff and toes in tomorrow morning. Weneed to go back and fix the whole trunk of the movie like what in the boat. Forme in you know- and I feel the same you know like- I see the the cards and Isee a few things I I say I think I could improve upon this and this andthis and maybe at this, but if I do that, then this project will never beover. You know so, and and now so we lie on. I trust implicitly on the Groupon Greg and Josh Susan and David to be Padial, honest with me when I, when Ishow them what I'm doing and tell him, what do you guys think that does itneed more could be improved? What should I had and when they say he itlooks great. You know this is finish. Then I M, I have the confidencethat I can go and go with the next step and go with it with the next start. Yeah I mean it's that old. The chestnutthat you know art is never released. It escapes you know so ye that yeah, Iknow- and I live by that- is that one and the other one is your first for musicians. Your firstalbum is a lifetime of work and every subsequent album is like a shorteramount of time right, but but yeah artist, art is neverreleased. It escapes, but you know, I'm not even with books and stuff that Iwrite to like. Sometimes you just have to stay him back and do like. I thinkthis is it you know, and it somebody asked me about, like writing booksabout how about like how I do it, and I don'twant tough on this tangent, because tillers hard be ramble about the sanestbut, like I think, I think we're you're creating anything from scratch. Youkind of have to look at it. You know I use the analogy of like asculptor like I wouldn't use a piece of plywood to carve. You know a sculptureof an owl right and I've got to sort of like look at what the at the wood I gotto find an appropriately shaped block of wood, and then I sort of cops it outof that, and I think that yeah, I think that having the cards is astarting place. You know the rider weight. Imagery is a good startingpoint for it, and you know one of the things that I really love about. Thecards too, is that I'm becoming more intimate with thesefigures that I've written about and talked about in a different way like Ihave an image of them in my heads now and I've said it's a couple ofdifferent times, but I think it bears repeating like I am not a Terro Guy,but I'm getting a lot of the cards, because I now could look at that AndreeCard and see the symbolism we've put in there which, along with you, know thedescription which is really what I'm doing is I'm sort of spearheading thebook and the written portion of this, as well with the description, becausethere's going to be an accompanying, a coffee table book and accompanyingbooklet. But I can look at the like the an Druffel card and you know a year agoI was familiar with Andrea's work, but I didn't have an image of her in myhead. I didn't have a knowledge of her now of her background. As a Catholic, Ididn't have a real, strong knowledge of her. You know the criticism, the Philipclass level to her, but I can look at that card now. I immediately rememberall this stuff. You know right. That's it's almost like one of it in. I usethe analogy of like an encoded sort of like the way that memory palacesactually work, which is like an image that has a lot of encoding, and it werelike a something like that and it sort of serves that purpose for me, which Ithink is really exciting to yeah. Exactly I see I mean, aside fromthe number of hours that I have devoted to you know actually sinning them anddrawing illustratin the cards. There are counsellors and countless of hoursof research, collective research from the five of us. You know all all these books that wehave collectively read about all these people like. I know that if I haven'tread Jacque valise forbidden science journals. You know from the one numberone to number four, that the magician curt would have come out very vastlydifferent, tasty different and because, because of reading those books, I got asense of Valet, not only as you know, UF resource that poly, but also JackRellis, the person you know, Jack Balias, the astronomer torn computer.Scientists turned you, know, capital master turned. You Know Commer r of the bigelow enterprises.Well, what I say is you know that the...

...thing that Robert Bigelow has doneneeds and on all these things with their skin Walker ranch. Also, hisinvolvement with his Ari because of this knowledge, is that I managed toenclose all these embolon to the car and also after the Tinkoo the emperor. It was reallyhelpful that I read Marco Cons, biography of Jelly Heine, the closeencounters man, which is highly recommended, and that's when I learnabout timex connection with tally's comment. You know he was born in ouine hundred. I want to say twentysomething you know when the helicon made up as to earth and then he died inone thousand nine hundred and it six. When the college comments returned, youknow so almost like yeah. He was like almost like march bythis comment to become an astronomer, a to become someone you know seeking forthe depenses or to the deep mysteries of the thing where science starts to breakdown. You know, and and this is so also something that I learned when I wasreading Forbidden Science and reading- How Jackand Hanne will have this really really deep conversations and they share theirlove. For you know the prosecution philosophy you know, that's why I putin portraying these two characters are: was a crusions, even though they werebelie members of any kind of like Secor society organization, but at hard theseguys are Rosa crus on his night you know, and now you know I headly rely onthe gas and Greg and Susan and Davy, because they know so much about thehistory of ethology. So when I go and say, okay, it's time to put x characterin the cars guys what you as can tell me about this character. What whatsymbols do I put you know- and you know that's one great suggested. Well, youknow, Barry and bony were members of the UNITARIAN church. So Oh, what's thesimulation church? Oh, it's kind of like a flame symbol. Oh there is in thebook of the tree of life. That is the hand behind Adam in the lover. Scot isa tree that has like fire. Let's changethe flames of the tree of life, a put the symbol of the intern church, sookay is in as ot yeah. It's all of these. You know it's all of the ofthese encoding of the secret life of these characters that is making theseso enriching and so excited. Like judge says, I mean we have a good Wodena ofwhere we want to go with the cards, but we haven't really said it on stone. Youknow it can change at any moment. You know tomorrow. Maybe Josh will find a really interestingpassage. Is Some books? You researching, and we say, Hey guys guys what if weuse these for one of the cars you know, and that will make it even better thanperhaps of the first idea we had in night yeah. Absolutely it evolves over time. So that, actually that was a prettygood segue. I was going to ask you about several of the different symbols. Are you guys open to talking about kindof where some of these symbols came from or you want to keep it more of asecret or I I got some specific questions I meanyou know. Even if we spill all the beans on these, we still got whatseventeen seven together there to obscure the symbolism behindyeah yeah awesome. Well, I guess first well, I'm Goin just start with withJacques. So on the magician card front center right above his head. Is thisship? It's an airship right? What is that cloud ship? Does that comefrom a specific case that Jacque worked on? Is that a reference to a specific thing or kind of the wholeairship site, gheist of the late nineteenth century or it's a general onMagonia, a right, yeah t exact direct reference to bath wort Magonia, becauseMagonia was supposed to be in medieval times. It was this belief. It was the slike Air Kingdom, in the clouds where theseinhabitants will come and raise the crops of the peasants s and they willdruin t t e the vegetables with you,...

...know rain and hail storms, and there isa very specific, a very interesting passage in Magonia of these abbey of I don't know. I know if it wasagobard or something someone who really didn't believe in these legends. Youknow he thought there were just superstitions of the superstition, theof the inner an peasants, but there was this idea that there was a time whenone of these cloud ships came and its anchor got stuck in. I think the BellTower of the Church and one of the cowmen like climbed down through the rope of the Olver, to tryto liberate the ship and the towns. People got a hold of that of him andlike restring him and were like fighting him and for some reason this person died. Although or there wasanother example in which the villagers got a hold up to alleged crewmembers of one of these cloud ships that they were going to like stone themto death because, like I said they were accusing them of ringing their cropsand endangering the Lardil and a yeah, the have actually managed to save them.That could say well it's this! It's nonsense! You can you! You cannotaccuse these two innosent big teams of being crew members of clouter, becausethere are no so Chingas clusive. So it's kind of like a fun example ofmaybe the one time in which sceptics managed to be useful. That reminds me of this. MEME is goingaround right now, which is you know, I'll be honest me and my friends wouldhave killed et with hammers e pages. Sorry, but but the other thingis that you know a lot of these. Magonia ships were like they weren'tlike, Oh, maybe it was like some sort of shining metallic. No, I mean it waslike they were described as like straight up sailing ships and this guyright, which is amazing to me because, like that's that you know that's that'ssort of the first thing I guess you'd go to. If you were thinking, if youwere inventing those kind of ships you know back when those the only ships youhad you know we didn't you didn't have aircraft, you didn't have planes. Allyou had were sailing vessels. It's. It reminds me a lot of the way we canCEPTAE space. You know like I'm thinking like in inHalo or like other kind of space, combat oriented things where yeah theylook different, but they're, essentially just boats like the waythey talk about in the way they function. You know it's yeah ECARTEspace space is like an extension of the sea to the point that space force. Youknow the the real space fors right now, if they are kind of like make it a notelike an extension of the air force or an extension of the navy, the Neve. Ihave so much to say about that, but it's in my new book and I'm just goingto bite my tongue in half and not say here right now, but yeah yeah, but that is that is that is avery precent comparison. You know I'll say it in that one. So once you're onceyour culture has mapped every square inch of the world, what happens to whathappens to the undiscovered country? You know that was once was once reachedby by ship like what happens to that Motif.You know, I think it becomes. I think it comes a spaceship yeah. That's that's! Really interesting and there's a Soleva. You know that allthese navy vessels this boats, that sailed the seas in centuries path andthey use all these like charts, right, traverse and know where to find thewans and where they were like the rocks that you need to need to avoid, and we have the starm up, yeah rightabove right above our lovers, cars that if you, if you look carefully till orit is almost like a black sun in a way be so I is like a gusty black rays onthis on on my lovers couple at my Maam, my Adam and Eve, and in close in myblack son, is the star map. You know the thing that they asked the leader toshow them where they have come from and the leader very, very tristely. Youknow he didn't really didn't answer. You know he wasyour like saying. Okay, where do you find yourself in this map? You knowlike impossible to answer that. Well, I don't know you know. Betty said I A oh.If you don't know where you are in the map, it's there's no using me tellingyou telling you where I come from a...

...like. Oh thank you. You know idiot no, but that thank you for for pointingit out, because that was something you know staring at. This giant sat at thetop of the car. There's I like very large half circle, that's clearly thenight sky right, it's a star map, you know in blackness, and that was thefirst thing I thought of when I saw that you know this giant black circleyou know essentially was was that idea of like the like dat or the Black Sun,or you know sort of this. This unknown is kind of like knowledge and andsecrets which you know yeah and also, and also a reference to the idea thatBarney when he was under hypnotic regression with Dr Simon. She said when, when he was regressed tothe time that she saw the occupants with his one binoculars for the firsttime he said they are Nazis. You know they look like masses. They have theseblack intros of these bacabs. So obviously you have the idea of theBlack Sun. Wasn't the one of the symbols of you know the s Ns as an s and I'm notsaying that to give to give the car a negative connotation just like werewere, like you said, we're playing with these symbols. You know you. Sometimesthe playfulness leads you to to very interesting into cat places yeah and trying to let every aspect of the card mean likethree things and do a lot of heavy lifting on its own. You know. So, ifthere's some way is there some way that we can combine multiple meanings intoone image, then that's, you know what will almost always go for. You know an else. Sorry I was justgonna say something else. I want to get in there real quickly, because I thinkthis is so cool and it's not what I would do, because I would have takeneasy way out, but the amount of effort that's been putinto obtaining photographic reference for these things, to make them veryaccurate, is really striking, by which I an by whichI mean, like you know, there's a p on the em not to jump at too far ahead,but on the full card which is wetly streamer. There are two cats, and youknow, for example, that Siamese cat is not just a Siamese cat. That's co likelike it was reference on Whitley's. I think it was the son's Siamese cat likeit's actually so, like the things that people are wearing are based on whatthey were wearing. You know, obviously, with some flourishes and what not tobring it in with with the rider weight imagery but like the the level offidelity to having an accurate representation of ofthe historical computer of this is really strong. It is absolutely and yeah it's one ofthe one of the very big strengths of of the deck. Honestly is the detail, thelevel of kind of intricacy? You know, speaking of the fool card,because I'm a fan of jumping around what is the kind of well the craft, the UFO that's sort ofup there in the top right corner. Is that a reference to a specific? Is that?Is it like a tennis, Arnold kind of thing? Or is it something? Something else it is? Something is like and is Ed isvery specific because, okay, if you take a look of the beauful literature,you will see that one of the most important outflies in the latetwentieth century, where happened at upstate New York, very close to where witless riverscaving, is located Ly, where he had all these strange events happening and andthe residence of that area reported these giant boomer and shaped craft. Thatwill fly at night very, very silently and be illuminated like a Christmas dream.You know like this was seen by contres, not thousands of people. You know likepeople that would pull over their cards and they will stop. You know like alike a crowd of people's stop of the road. Just jaw drop seeing thesemammoth boot ball size thing hogen over them, and this case was also study. The report werealso studied by other people. I think that Philippine Broccolis involved inthat, of course, I if you broke, no fell out of grace when a skepticdiscover that he had...

...live about some of his bibiographer background.But a side of that I and obvious other skeptics said that this was not really a big woman on shapecraft or were in fact small liter planes. Like fine information, you knowwith their their lights on. That was one way in which they tried to the bunkit. I remember that in e t s there was this really really cool episode of anthroat mysteries that I actually watched here in Mexico. When I was akid you know an I was like Guba by it yeah and I actually try to grab. Youknow like a screen rap from Youtube of that episode, using that as a m, myreference, but it didn't really work and I found another good reference andI use that. So that is one of the things. What the reason why, in thatparticular shape of that you of Ufo, is in that card and also because weeklyactually mentions those reports or e those incidents in hers. First, well,his first: U Ful Related Book Communion, you know which was Reles, one thousandnine hundred and seven that's interesting. I didn't realizethat there was a connection with Whitley, because you know I guess when I had read it. You know I had readit a few years ago and a lot of what I picked out out of it was about hispersonal interactions. You know, is the sort of a and obviously the glowinglight which you have around the cabin, but just the the physical and like oneto one correspondences that he was having with these visitors that that crafts never really seemedlike a big part of it, but he never said that he was taking a board one ofthese crafts. He just he brought up the this sort of flap. Is that what you'resaying he brought in? He brought up the F. Hebrought up the flap as I kind of like saying that yeah. When I have my abduction, you cal you can, if you wantto call it like that, this, what there was this going on right, where you know he's cabin islocated. You know I almost like, I guess some sort of validation. You know,even though I don't know if there were other a report of you, know, abductionsor encounters with beings in that area side from him, but yeah Iwanted to. I wanted to point that out and thats. I think I remember you knowthat he in the community on he when he is like, describing the events of the firstconscia subduction he had like. Yes, I think he remembered like yeah floatingin the sky and and you in these, like giant object, illuminated and and somekind of like air lock or some kind of like door opening, so he could enteryou know. So I know that I don't know if he doesn't really go into into thatmarch of you know describing different types of urls or whatever in his books,but I felt that that it was a good opportunity to put one of those coolbooming and shaped youalls in the cars, because you know,obviously I mean you are yes. I know we are centering the cuts in thecharacters in Eupolis, but you really need to put the a? U for one or price aexactly get to ambitious. No, it's awesome. I guess jumping backto the magician, the spider in the bottom right corner.Obviously, I see there's sort of the rosy cross mo chief going on there.What does the spider and the web represent? Is that a reference to what is it a reference to? I can specton the, but if you look closely into into the belly of the spider, you willsee that it actually has some letters describe their and theletters are. The word is ARPA. You know, which is a direct reference to the ARPAnet. Oh Yeah Jack male helped to build. You know for the for the US governmentand the opponit for people who don't know it was the direct recourseof our mother Internet. You know it's something that the government dealtbecause they thought they needed to have some kind of like communication system. I, if theproverbial FICO matter, hit the fan and...

...wardwell three erupted with the SovietUnion. So you know like, like the president, nine to stay incommunication while being on a bunker like three miles on the ground, so thatgot the Arpin it you know so I wanted to put like that like I would like itis not like malicious or negative, but it's kind oflike saying. Well, you know if you, if you are a citizen in the twenty firstcentury, you probably have consuling conflicting views about the Internet.You know the Internet has is probably one of the best inventions developed by mankind after the printingpress, but at the same time you look around. You know, like we probablythere's a good chance that by the next two or three years, democracy will nolonger exist in the world and that will be largely thanks or cause of theInternet. Yeah I've, often I've, often over the past eighteen. Twenty fourmonths said that I think that, like it's patentlyobvious that the Internet has driven us a lot of us mad- oh my God, it dailyyeah, it's a not to get unwell a screw it. I like engines, have either of youguys, seen or heard the Bubura song welcometo the Internet, no familiar with this stuff and I've.Some of that found it funny, but I haven't heard that now it's back in two thousand and twenty, Ithink- or maybe it was this year during you know the pandemic er or whateverhe's put together his own sort of special that he filmed in his house andkind of, like you know, did everything himself and one of the songs and is iscalled welcome to the Internet. I strongly recommend that everybodywatched the video of it because it's super creepy and it does a really goodjob at capturing kind of the the amazing elements of the Internet, aswell as the depraved and disturbing elements of theInternet, both in terms of the content, that's on it and in terms of what ithas done to us and what it is doing to us as a as a species. I think that's you know it's something we all ought tobe more cognizant of, I think, day to day of how we're interacting with this giant thing. That is like changingeverything. It changes our business models. It changes, you know oureconomic systems, it's changing, how we look at politics, how we get ournews, how we communicate with each other, where we order our you know,physical things from, like our you know, physical goods and even food in somesituations, it's completely revolutionized. You know- and I don'tmean that necessarily in a good way, but it has changed dramatically the waythe humanity lives, at least in you know, in places where it is able tokind of become a central. You know essential tenet of the society, which is yeah a lot of ease.It's a double age sort like much like a lot of things in ethology right. I meanlike it's so entertaining for me, someonewho has study at our for, for I don't know more than thirty years, seeing how people are still elevatingdebating. Whether UFOS are you know, good or bad, you know are there use tosave us? Are they here to inmates are here to like, like stract our spurn and eggs, or tolike take a drain or blot to consume US other use creation? An army of ofhybrids are either here to eat our souls. If you go with that route and to me that really putting the question in such binary andsuch limits in terms because I think I'vesaid this often on other platforms, you know, especially in Serias, so I tendto use the metaphor of psychedelics whentalking about your false, you know like psyches, especially in after the Nixonadministration, the Clare, the war on drugs. They were demonized and theywere like saying that is the worst thing that ever happened to Mankan.Just saying no, this is your brain on drop and all that just and now we'regetting these resurgence of no, you know actually psychedelics are a God,send they are divine tools for the...

...expansions of consciousness and there'salso a lot of plans to create a billion dollar industry. Once you know,these substances are completely legalized with much like you know whathappened with things like Joga or Mabutin mindfulness right now in theUnited States. There's always you know, hit's almost like every every God getsa prise in America, but I think it's people forget about what psychlists really admonished about. You have to bemindful of the certain setting. You know like the same substance. You knowlike Ez can have like great benefits for you, and you can really enhanceyour your psyche and your speech is spiritualityand I can turn from one like which of Albert to Ramdas, who became a very important member of the cancerculture and a very lomon teacher and someone who was very compassionate butELESD also turned Charles Manson into this monster and Tis. You know thesegirl cult leader that sent his menials to C to you, know, commit thesehorrible crimes and the same substance different results. So I always thinkyou know what what is the proper set in setting for the UFO sperience? You knowyou really need to have a good set during to be mindful of that. When yougo to the one of those super expensive, you know retreats with Steven has beweird to have your. You know your clothes, your see, five experience,maybe something that I should you know. We should call caution demiodes nowthat she is fun on this quest to go and have experience with with with the Alien Saviors Oh by the world.I think that she gets angry when we call them aliens. You know that's kindof like not politically correct and yeah the call Oh yeah. She says youhave to you need to call the extraterrestrials because alien as Iterm and I'm like what like I'm, not saying that the ethis wrong. But, like that's even like that's a a you can't prove thatsomething that's theoretically, he can't offend something that may maynot exist right, but be even if even if you're in company like like us, whobelieve that there's something to it, that's that's. A big leap to like alium is a more accurate, the scripterit's a dumb conversation to be having, but the more I for the EXATRAPAES arein my opinion, because we don't know we, but they could be alien and they couldbe anything from extra terrestrial to I don't know like ultra dimensional or orwhatever it he rest. Yeah Yeah Cryptarithm they're, still aliens,they're, still kind of like an outside. You know thing, and I think that wordhas become so loaded, though, because of political yeah, Yeah Yeah Yeah Eilynow understand that but yeah like a to for her to say you nonthere Expatrie. How do you know you know? Maybe they tybee here formillions of years and they are more terrestial than Homo sapins. I mean Idon't know, and what's the funny thing is that it's, I think it's really it'sa another manicatis of the religiousimpulse right. It's like not speaking the name of of the away. You know I never thought of that. But that's sogone point yeah. You know just to kind of say a final thing about this web on on the magician card. One thing that really captured me aboutit is the shape of it because it sort of has this. You know I mean it's inthe corner of the card and a lot of you know you kind of get tomain shapes of webs right. You get the big grand circular ones with the youknow where the the whole thing is visible and there maybe, between acouple, trees or or whatever, or you get these you get these these cobblesright. You get the ones that are in in the dusty corners that you, you don'tuse so much, and it's interesting to me because it feels like especially beinga reference to the arpanet. It feels like it's it's this thing that we'vecreated and we've kind of pushed into the corner of of our consciousnessright we're not it's not necessarily front and center, even though we areusing its functions constantly the the...

...actual thing is sort of festering orgrowing and becoming this kind of like not detritus. But, like you know, it'sthe just bunnies are growing right and if it's not something that I actuallyhad fought off, you know consciously, but the fact that you're giving thatinterpretation to a Taylor- I love it. You know, I love the idea that peoplewill look into these curds and they will draw their own conclusions to apoint that yeah. I know that we wanted to create this book that just will atand we're trying to like well yeah. I explain some of the like historic thatwe that were putting in it, but sometimes I almost feel hesitant toactually reveal everything, because I want to leave a certain level ofambiguity, so the magic can steal. You know manifest within the mind of eachviewer and that's something that you hadmentioned. One of you guys had mentioned when we were on. Where didthe road go? Is You know? I think I think it was you Miguel. Itsaid you know you coming up with the card and you show it to somebody likethe situation with the candle. I think it was Josh Ta pointed out in thestrength card, but these little things that different people see in different ways,and we know we each bring our own perspective because our minds, our kindof lived experience, is chock full of things that are very different from youknow, person to person. You know, I think that bos downanything from the shapes of things to the placement of like a web in thecorner or whatever to even the colors of of the deck o, the colors that areutilized in in the deck, and there are not very many there are well,you got. You got the whole black and wit spectrum. So you got a variety ofshades of gray that you looks like you're, creating through a lot of likecross, hatching and kind of like layering, different,different stuff, so you're not really using gradients but looks like a coupledifferent. A couple: different shades, maybe and us in Cap Tom Patrons- is, Ithink, what what it's called Okay and then you also have blue, which isfairly prominent in each of the cards and a little tiny bit of red yeah, and that's something that Ireally think makes this. This deck pop. You know really kind of like emphasizesthe little elements and it helped me bring it sort of this dimensionality toit. But it's really cool and I think myfavorite thing still is betty. Betty Hills dress being purplewhen you look at it, but really it's made up of this red and blue and sortof you know brings about a totallydifferent color, while still maintaining kind of within thoseconstraints. It's very cool, stuff yeah and they did well sexually o t E. Imean it's too bad. He wasn't able to join us, but David is. I need to givehim credit for coaxing me to add wreath of my limitedpolit, because at first I was very, very element and saying no. I only wantto use, like you said black and white and using you know like cross catchingtechnics in order to a the odium and texture, to my to my figures, a D andusing like gray and using Halton patterns in order to add anothercertain level of values and then, like you said, I was very adamant of usingwreath in a and a few keep things within the car. In this case. Okay, Iknow for wins, whimsically in the magician care. Okay, I'm going to giveJacques a bet. I don't know if he ever just ever owned about that. Maybe hehates she I don't know, but what the hell and I put the red in the roses ofthe like Ross Rosicrusian symbols that are liketrapped within the the UPA Cup web that are on the lower rightcorner. So I I said from the beginning: okay, I'm going to do use that freak amye on to use the rep in order to direct attention to the eye of the bewer, tothe things that I feel are important in the girl cause, and then David said no,we usual, you should also use, like maybe put the Blue Sky, and I was likeno, no. No, I don't want to I you know...

...like that. I threw a time from, as Ioften do you know, and after like five hours of hating everybody and returningto it I said a fine. Let me try to find a level of blue that I kind of like soI chose one and I show it to them, and I very big regagne acknowledge likeyeah. David is right. You know it looks really better on blue, and so I decidedokay. So I'm going to use these this Rath Blue Gray, black and white, andthat safe and sometimes it's been a real struggle, especially especially onthe last car, the Folker and which really triedto use very different tricks in order to use that limited pole portier,making every element distinct. You know that makes no, I think them not justlike o lost within an amorphous background, but it's that it has workedso far and I feel well keep working so far, and I I'm really looking forwardto come up with new tricks to things that I am planning for, for, forexample, the hermit cut that I'm really going to make it very very striking tothe point that, like every time that I then a making one of these tailor is itfeels? Oh, this is my favorite card ever you know, and I think it will haveall the way to the end. You know. Hopefully you know so so it will keepme interested and obviously that's there's also the set fact that if youlook at the the the SODII hermit card, it's a very simple thing. Just you haveone see your the hermit holding some kin like a lamp with a star trapped init and he's carrying staff and he's like an on top of a pik or a mountain,or something and that's say, but being the ethology tar, Cartam being Galingthis you know a a class masochist and ovile going to add a chuck full ofsambals and things there just to make it. You know a hundred percent specialand it's kind of like almost like my fear. You know that, but by D m, thelast God it will be almost like one of those you animals, Busk, thinkings. You know like like it things. I also feel that that is wont to be thefate of the death card, which is still is going to be also one of the thefuture of Gods and are going to embark on, and we already have a good idea.Well, I need to put in there and yeah it's going to be it's real by Glora,but it's going to be so hard to do. Yeah. I feel you there I mean especially like you're, saying kind ofcompounding as things go along like the fool has has so much going on in it,but you do still manage to make each of these elements distinct, like even theblack cat, has distinct from the black background. You know, and and just eventhe trees that are kind of in the background there. Everything feels likeit's in its right spot, and it also has this like depth to it, like obviouslythere's the size, but just something about the. I think. Maybe it's theshades pushing pushing those darker colors into the background and bringout the lighter colors of the ground and it yeah. I don't know it's you're doing a phenomenal job and Icannot wait to see the rest of the cards, especially especially the deathcard and the world. So the it's death, the world andtemperance, are my three kind of like heavy hitters, my three favorite terrocards. So I I cannot wait to see what those turn out to look like you know. I had a couple otherquestions about some specific symbols, but I don't know. Let me let me ask twomore and then I think I'll leave the rest to to to the imagination, at least for now one just because I can't see it. It'sjust really small. What is on Heinecke of the emperor card. Ah, that is an excellent, excellentquestion and that actually I remember that Greg suggested to put thesymbol of the right person air force. If I'm okay- maybe maybe I isremembering or not, but I'm pretty sure that is something that Gregg wasdiligent enough to find on the Internet. For me, so I could add it I and thenlike. I said this is something that I...

...that isn't planned once I put it there.Susan Point pointed out: Oh it's almost like, as if you are suggesting that theair force is choking highneck with the towel. You know like putting a noose onhis neck and it was wow that is so so great. The idea that totally on planed,on my be on my behalf, because I just say yeah- I want to put some kind ofsymbol here with some kind of like reference to the Air Force, because Iwanted to keep him a blue try right, because my magician bale, I really hada red tie. So I want to have tie like that contract rather blue, and then thesuggestion put at that put that particular symbol on his tie and thensomething that Susan pointed out. I was completely on unexpected and once shesaid it, it felt like almost like okay, it was meant to be. You know like yeah, it's perfect, it's theperfect, you know metaphor or what happened withpoor. Dr Alin Hinge. You know that he was a member of Project Blue Book. Hewas the scientific consultant and of someone like the Air Force kept likeTitan and his the news of the of the tie more and more and more on Til. Hecouldn't breathe and he said okay, I quit, you know enough is enough andthen he went and do did his own thing. So Yeah! That's!That's! That's a symbol that is on the side, wow, that that is incredible. That'sthat's! That's a lot of detail in a lot of meaning packed into honestly such asmall thing. You know, because it's that symbol, honest tie is smaller thanthe little red anchor circles there in esente corners. You know, which is, let me say so salready pretty. I need something yeah yeah and it's something that, to behonest, I have to compass it kind of wors me thatyou know the guys kept telling me Ye Gal. You keep pulling pouring all thesesuper super small symbols that maybe no one will be able to seebecause, as a digital artist, that's one of the one of the advantages andcourses of digital lustrations. You can Assuan to like work almost at a pixellevel right, but once it's actually printed on a physical medium. Likepaper, you know a lot of those details might be lost, especially if you'rejust printing at three hundred dot prince. That's. Why I'm asking the guysto see if we can actually ensure the cast to be printed at a higherresolution, but yet, regardless of that, there's also the chance to see allthose details with a larger prince the eleven by seventeen inch prints thatwere going to do that. We are going to give us another tear in the campaignbecause all of the La as a digital artist I mean the cards, are you knowthis very well taller? The cars are two point: Seventy five inches in with andfour point seventy five inches in height. So if I had just you know drones, as you know, right away at thatat that size I wouldn't have been able to add all these level of people. Sofrom the beginning, I said to myself: I'm going to draw all my cost fourtimes the size that I need to in order to endorse myself with all thesedetails- and you know, let's see what happens in the future, and hopefully you know, I also told the guys you know. I almostlike feel that my desire is that someone we all purchase a magnifyinglands. Just so, they can actually appreciate all these. These of is whatis that thing that it seems to be on the Onden, the belly on the of theToetie? Oh a fan, and they will, you know, see Josh's booklets within thecar. Oh and the will, you know, learn about these things, yeah. Of course youknow the other. The other thing that is the tidy illustrations, do even if theydon't come through, is they kind of Sicilie it as well? Yes, exactly soyeah, which, which is you know, there's something already on the on the thefull cardthat's, never going to see the...

...light of day that that's true, that'ssort of silvical in there yeah. So the thing that shall be no, that shall notbe named. I have a guess I want to. I want to makemy guess once were once we're done, recording all ask but yeah, but yeah, it's one of thosethings where, like you know, I kind of it was a nice little detail that I kindof enjoyed but like at the same time. It's still it's still there in spirit,and I think that functionally it's still there as well.So so I have one more question about asymbol, and then I actually want to talk about these these books. Wetouched a little bit on him earlier, but but before that last symbol, I'vegot in mind the Red Star above Heineke. Is that a reference to a specific star?Is that a specific story or just the need detail? Or what were your thoughtswith that? I think that, like I said, I wanted to put a little bit of Red High Lights here andthere on my car up just to make it interesting. So I decided okay, I'mgoing to put a red red thing there that well, it could be. It could be theplanet Mars, and I think that High Nek as ation as an astronomer, I think thathe actually was working on. You know charging the planet mors with withValet. I think they worked in you. They went to New Mexico actually when theywas working on that and Bala mentions that now in his lateTrinity, that he co wrote with Paula Harris. So there is that, but maybemaybe that's not Mars, maybe there's there's not an actual planet, but oneof those things that people see in this sky and say: Oh that's, a planet doesnot be Ben us and then Oh look. We nowse kind of moving in a way that shunmove. You know, so that's that's kind of like sometimes you knowit's something planned sometimes is like something like. I want to be a bitplayful with yeah with the car. You know so spontaneous it's a greatplacement being like right above his head and right below t e, the numberand the the color you know being that it's very red and you're using redversparsley. My first thought with it aside from being perhaps a reference to anactual like a star. You know because of red shift and blue ship, which is thewhole other thing we could talk about with the relation here. But my other thoughtwith it was in my own, like magical practice: redis associated with fire and the emperor a couple of the symbols that are verycommonly associated with the emperor are things like aries, that's kind ofthe the poor symbol behind it, as well as sulphur and and also kind of byextension, the sun and fire as well the the Red Triangle in that symbol,which I don't remember exactly what that is, but in his hand, he's got thatsort of symbol from I think we said it was from one of the cases right. That's a yeah, exactly like a please. Let me go back to what you saidabout. There was a ram in the emperor card, because I remember clearly howgreat said: okay, instead of using the symbol of the ram, let use the symbolof the bull because Henik was born. I remember the the month because I'mnot that good, I in with astrology and the Soria, but it was a monthcorresponding with the Soviet symbol of the of the ball or the for then weusually lay a for into may exactly. So that's what he said: okay,try to see if you can put like the constellation of Toros within the youknow the next guy of the card and said yes sure that that works perfectly,that that is one of the the feel things the few to the only like connectedstars. You know living that story field. Above my my emperor and now with us towhat you said. Yes, in the emperor card, he has like a o like some kind of likeoars like a sterical ord, and I remember were saying well what shouldbe like the Orgin, our emperoring Nalini Nic, and that why, like I said,I remember from wreathing the clos close in counters men and also winningfor the science that Gania was deeply involved in t the research or theinvestigation of the succor landing...

...case. So Para again, you know I withLonis. You know, which was a very important case, and I think that wasthe case in which was he was one of the cases that he was askingfor. He kept telling Valet. You know I will need like a solid case with a goodwitness trace evidence close. You know signing of occupants that will be likethe feller bullet that will break this whole open on and for a while. Theythought that was that was going to be at or reasons that would take too longto explain that. Wasn't it but yeah he went there. He personally wander toinvestigate the case and interview Samora, but they wasn't able to go there forreasons that I won't remember, but so he was hine was involved in that case very very deeply, and that'swhat I felt. Oh that's that's the case that that I'm going to highlight, because ifyou guys remember of people listening to to this podcast, the the shape ofthe object or the craft that was cited by by this patron and Lanisar last taka,so I said: okay, I'm going to take this or instead of making it Speriamo ng tomake it like an old one. I was like a you know, almost like a football shape,and I'm going to put there like. Like you said you know, my red highlight isone of the the the red symbol that supposedly was inscribed or in plasedin the fuselage. If you want to call it like that, and I keep using likecalling going very carefully with his because people who don't know me, I'm notreally much into the not and both aspect of Byton more up. You know, Iguess binormal Ist in my views of the phenomenon, so I don't really think that wasprobably a structure metal craft with some kind ofinsignia from another planet of a or another. I don't know like you know,company company whatever, but sure that is a timble that I decided to use andby the way, there's a lot of controversies withregard to the symbol, because some people say that that wasn't the actualsymbol that a mora salt, they say that people from the Air Force asked him tochange the symbols and say I was a different symbol, as some kind of likeI don't know, control mechanism you know like I guess they say well you. Soif other people report the bag sin bolt, then we will know that it's a big case.Well, some people are okay force, the the real symbol that some moral witness.Then we will know have some kind of like no. I wait to know that effectually acane a we should they should invest it, but what we decide that for better or washe the symbol that is in the cover of many many illustrations. You know whenthey illustrate or report the the Soco landing case is the one thathad an impact in the history of ethology. Therefore it was the symbolthat we chose and it looks like I'm just looking at pictures. It looks likeit's depicted as, as you know that very bright red in a lot of the images, alot of renditions, so that's was pretty fitting yeah. I guess that that that's kind ofI mean you know there. I have other questions about the symbols stuff, butI, but I did want to kind of touch on some of the stuff with the book, so just you're kind of put it togethermost of the book stuff right, yeah, I'm you're right again, the well the buckstops with me. I guess where the book stops with me, but yeah, so I believe that, with the exception of Miguel, who'sobviously got plenty on this plate. Everyone else will be contributing card descriptions, so myself, David andSusan and Greg but I'll, be noman. Writing my own cards as well. Whicheverone's I get choose I choose or side myself, but also just making sure that we're consistenton style and spelling. You know I mean like littlethings like do. We use the except for Valet Orr, not because he doesn'talways. He doesn't always use the...

...accent, but some people, you know sojust little stole things like that insuring they all come in at a similarword count and making sure that both the booklet that comes with the TerroDeck, as well as the large format coffee table book that we're doingeight and a half by eleven will actually, you know all turn out ofquality and, of course the you know he be basic terra overview in thebeginning of the booklet as well. As you know, your basic spreads. So notreally sure I mean it's like one of those things where it's like. You know how much do you tell people to who are you know in that in an in anintroduction to tero? How much do you tell them about spreads and all thisstuff, but we do the basic. You know the basic arrangements and go fromthere a yeend up doing but yeah. That's that's! That's mychief responsibilities, in addition to just providing ideas on the cards. My advice with the spreads is you knowexactly like you were saying, keep it simple, you know you could probably get awaywith not including any spreads, but it is something Nice, especially forpeople who aren't familiar with Tero to kind of have an idea of where to gowith it, but something I would you know, suggest as an alternative which youcould illustrate with a couple spreads and honestly could probably get awaywith just a sentence or two is to do reading. You Know Lake Lake cardsdown where each card sort of answers aspecific element of of the reading. You know so you can show that yeah pastperson, the future or you could do it. As you know this that or the otherthing or whatever it is. You know that's that's kind of, and youknow I guess that's just the way that I do readings is I sort of look at themas a free flowing kind of you know. Sometimes I'll use quote unquotespreads, but they always sort of look different and they're they're createdkind of at Hawk, but yeah. It's a tricky thing, especiallybecause you know you don't want to devote too much of your page account toright stuff. THAT'S NOT THE CARDS! Well, and especially nowadays I mean you know, there's so much in terms ofresources that people have online. You know you can just type of yea terris bread variations and you cancome up with, like you know, a dozen dozen different different differentsprings that you can do, and you know I think it's important that whoever, ifsomebody's, actually need in terror with it- and they pick this up- that you really find what suits you. Itseems, by all appearances, to be that sort of a discipline really you know Ijust whatever speaks to you and whatever is easiest and clearest foryou to read so yeah. I don't think we're going togo too far down the rebathe. I do know I've spoken with so usin about the exactly what you said about, likeyou know, a sample scenario for people to sort ofget an idea of how we on a trip of the cars- and I think, that's definitelysomething that we're looking to doing nice. Yeah, that's a as something thatshould be mentioned because you haven't mentioned it yet in this podcast. Isthat right now the the contain and theproject involves the major arcani cards. You know fractint the complete Teradabecause, like like I mean we are, we are real discussing up o how muchsimilis o how much detail where I am putting into the car so to complete allof the cards within original Lamantine. You know he was going to take too long, so we decided okay, let's gofirst stage the major or Cana. Let's go with that so signedly as a part, two of theproject as a sect on independent campaign, we will go with the minorCana and for people who are back in us in this campaign, we're going to ensurethat you are well compensated for your support that we are going to receivesome kind of like very good discount. If you decide toalso back us on the second part of the of the project, which will be the theout that the minor Cana, the other, the other car, that will complete yourCardec, and these are the things that we are trying to figure out, but yeah.We really want to to say to people just like we wanted to give this project a reasonable. Like goal, you know, and-and like I told you guys, you know, I...

...need this amount of time to just finish.One Card. You know one guy alone yeah. So if we, if we go with the campaignand said Yeah, we have finished the whole the whole deck but is not go taketwo years with fear that was going to be. You know the people go back away fromthat. So that's. Why were we were decided thatwe're going to the to go with only the major Orcano and people who know Taroknow that you can feel war with only the major can without a minor, and oncewe go with MINORCAN A it will be. Also something that would be each card wouldbe very special. If we'll have something meaningful about the historyof Upolo, you will not be just like a copy taste of. I don't know. Symbolslike like cap of source or now I want to win,take my time and devotion and passion in order to make you one of Achan everyone single one of these Toro Te calcars. You know meaningful and a joy to lookat and to work with yeah absolutely and a hundred times over. I wouldabsolutely recommend doing it that way doing fully illustrated minor con ofcards than doing pips. That was something I struggled with when I was kind of working up, the CICILIAN Om,and originally it was pips on all the miners, and I just I just didn't. Ididn't like it, I didn't care for it, it didn't feel complete and it took alot longer, but I was able to you know crack out the rest of it. It's totallytotally worth the time that it will take, and I think it's honestly verygenerous of you guys to to offer you know a compensation or some kind ofdiscount for people who support the second project as well. You know I. I am curious about the printing, howthat's going to work. If you have people getting the first twenty twocards, the major Cana, and then you know a year or two years down the road.Getting the remaining fifty six cards you know, will the will the princematch up or or what not? And that's something that you know. It's reallyhard to know for sure. That's something that, with my tarade Ididn't anticipate and what ended up happening was. The sheets were basically positioneddifferently on. I had to get some cards reprinted and so and I can send you apicture because of that: the sort of two halves of the deck, thefirst chunk and the last chunk don't exactly line up correctly, they're thesame size there. You know they all have the same in everything's the same interms of the print, but the paper grain itself is different, and so it's verynoticeable on the sides before the deck is shuffled. So I know it's justsomething to consider: I'm not sure exactly what you guys are planning forthat, but that's something I didn't anticipate and I wound up finding thatout after it was sort of too late. But but I yeah you think I mean we to behonest. We haven't anticipated and we thank you for showing that it bit ofwisdom with us and yeah. We will should takeit in for account to ensure that the people that back thecampaign we get the best bank for their buck. You know, because we're reallynot going to cut any force in trying to keep people. You know the backers arereally nice quilty project, not just for people who want to have it as acollective item. You know something something cool to look at, or maybe youknow you know, frame o no, no or something, but also the one who willactually want to to work with them. You know yeah, you know that's. That issomething that we will go see the rig yeah. Absolutely you know and, like Isaid before, I'm more than happy to kind of share with you guys some of thethe the learning experiences that I had along the way because it was it was ahell of a trail, but I think I think it'll know maybe work out. Maybe we canwhat what what we can do is like ensure that we get enough this of the samepaper and like stuck it somewhere, so that the time comes to go with thesecond pace of the of the campaign. You know, okay, but you used the same paper.You know so so when you t will you have the same conssistency and the samequality? I don't know Oh yeah. No, so,...

...basically what it boiled down to was. Iended up having to go through two different printers. Okay. They were both getting the samepaper from the the paper company WHO's, who I actually ended up ordering thecards through, but that paper company sort of shopped out the printing tothese two different well to a printer who screwed up over and over and overagain- and I think it was the third time they had like screwed things up.It was different things each time. My Paper Company, the people. My contextbasically said: okay, we're not going to work with these people anymore,because they're not taking responsibility for what happened, andyou know it was. I was a whole best, so they found a different printer who wasable to actually do it, and you know the cards look phenomenal. They turnedout virtually identical the the the problem was, and nobody saw this untilit was sort of too late, because I'm the kind of crazy person who noticesthese miniscule details. What I think had happened was it wasn't, even thatit was different paper. It's just that. Whatever position the paper was put inon the first cut on the first print, it was flit, so it was other flippedupside down or it was flipped like a hundred eighty degrees around. Soliterally just the grain is different and the cards just Raeita yeah. So it'sthe smallest little thing and it's something that I have kicked myself forover and over again, because you know and there's nothing there's nothing. Wereally could have done about it. But I would say you know if you, if you kindof, have the awareness of that and the awareness of like some of the otherstuff, which I can talk, O you guys about later ahead of time. You can kindof build a plan and work with your printer and it sounds like you guys aregoing through a printing company that is well known for for printing cardsand yeah. It was shuffled in great or was it I think so. Yeah Shuffle in Greg took the time to shop around and seeYEP, which company was the best equipped and they had the bestreputation for this sort of works and yeah. I think it was shoppinand we are starting to work with them andstarting or in the process of getting troops from them to see, like you said,the quality of their printing and to check out the kind of paper they'regoing to give to the cars and to see that that we are fully satisfied withit, because you know like, for example, one one thing that happen is that we had a previous project that thegroup worked on, in which cars were also involved and grey already had aprinting company for that project. So Greg was very element of having real physical car samples that hewanted to use for the Promo Vireo that he created for the campaign. He wasvery like the idea yeah I want to like it because he owns a drawn writ a veryprofessional drawn with a good camera that he wanted to actually use a drumto actually like have some kind of like Ariel shot coming down to the cars orsomething crazy. Like that and say no, no. I actually want to go and print thecards and use that, but when he went with that particular printer for somereason that we can figure out the samples look like Rapp- and I like say-Oh my God this- this is absolutely horrible. I wanted to. I literally, wasstopped by the by Josh and the rest from killing myself, because I feltlike the first thing. That's ever happenedto me and they say no. No. This is a screw up from the from the printingcompany. This is not because of your art work and ran so yeah. Obviously, weneed to you know, make sure that it's going to be complicated, because the pretecompanies in the United States Gregson the United States im in Mexico. So it'sgoing to be a bit of shuffle around in order to see how we work. This in orderto you know, are not going to like give the green like a breath to go aprincess, the the cars on less time, one hundred and ten percent satisfythat is going to look gorgeous and just at least ninety ninepercent. The way that I envision them, you know from yeah totally I tree, you know Yepit. When you know one thing that's worth considering or urge. I guess justworth pointing out is shuffling or whoever it is. I think I think that'swho it is, but you guys are working with a printer who's, very well knownfor printing cards and especially like...

...even terro cards specialized interocards, the the printer, the first printer that we were going to a so. Theproblem with my deck was its black paper with you V ink printed on it andthat's it, and because of that no card company that I contacted was able to doit at a reasonable price because they would all have to basically outsourceto other printing shops, because it's just not part of their equipment. Theyjust don't have the the printers necessary, and so I ended up findingmidland WHO's. This paper company in Minneapolis and- and you know- Iexplained the project to them. I showed them some some some demos I had printed in a smallshop and they came up with a solution andand what they did was they shopped it out to a printing company thatspecializes in basically like brushers yeah a lot of what these people do atthat company are like print like collateral, so things you hand out, youknow they specifically also did gift cards and like a bunch of stuff like that,they'd never done a deck before, and I think the impression that I got fromthe communication breakdown and the issues that we had was that they didn'tunderstand that it was a deck of cards or at Arles. They didn't understand theimportance of uniformity in a deck of cards and it wasn't, it wasn'timportant to them, and so they didn't prioritize it, and then they ended up.There were like three or four different mistakes that happened over the courseof time, but anyway, that's that's a story for another day. I think you guys,I will have a much easier time of it. Working with a company, that's actually known for Carr Yeah Yeah. They have confidence that who never we choose for printing the cause. Youknow you know this, this company, that you spoke of or another that they willbe professionals, how they will know their business, that they understandhow our priorities to you know give away premium, product or backers. You know Ilike I said you know I want something that will last at least fifty years orso of people using the cars and church in the cars, not something that theywill say. Oh you know what the hell you know it like the I grab the cards andthe ink much the momentary touches with my finger. Then that is not going tohappen. We we are committed to, like REX, saidwe're committing to overgave. You know, instead of you know under under underinstead of on, like I said under promise, but overgift, you know, that's our model. With this project yeah, it's A. I think Ireally do believe. It'll turn off an hominal. I guess just one or two morequestions I had josh. Maybe you would have some insightwith the hard or not hard cover. Let me rephrase that with the coffee tableversion of the book, is it going to be hard cover, or is itgoing to be paper back sure if we've actually settled uponthat yet magadon? If we have, I think that now that, as you pointed out, thecampaign has gone beyond, then ye shall go. We are now at the liberty to check ouroptions and to see whether we can actually afford to have a nicer versionof the cope til book and go okay. We have actually first estimated a castfor the you know paper back version right, maybe now we can actually affordto give a hard coverers on to the backers. Also, so, like a token ofappreciation, I think thank you. You know you you were expecting like youknow, you were expecting silver were giving you goals, you know for it foryour support, yeah I mean. I think that there are acouple of a couple of points in our rewards that we can that we sort of always intended to beinflection points in terms of where we can pivot and and maybe get something alittle bit more. So there's been a lot of back and forth yeah we're just gonna see where thesignal and it's I a little different there totally. Well, that's that's a perfectthing to do for like a like a stretch goal you know which I you know that the the stickwith that is, you kind of have to know what the h...

...cost is going to be and any sort offactor that in and what not, but that's that's a whole different conversation.But we are studying these as we speak. You know,like the elements of the team, were in charge of checking that and on on ournext, like reunion that is going to be very,very soon we're going to take a decision what to do with that. In God's regard, awesome that is a very exciting. Ican't wait to see what what kind of stuff to come up with her like stretch,goals or kind of carrying on with the sort of like additionalfunding, meve already secured and undoubtedly will continue to secureacross these next seventeen days, and then I guess another question aboutthe book being that a sort of coffee table book is it going to be like fullcolor photos of each of the of each of the cards with like Aconitin or what is the format?What's the plan for that yeah? Definitely definitely full colorPrince of each car and thethe descriptions will be expanded,maybe not in a huge way, but they'll definitely be expanded from the fromthe booklet as well. Yep. Okay, that makes sense wow. That's a good to look very, very good. I Ecannot wait just like I'm just grinned over here. Just like I keep scrollingthrough the cards looking at him and just smiling o. You know I mean, likeI've, been thinking about this a lot, because this is its doing so well, it'skind of like well. You know we have five descriptions in the bank.We have five cards in the bank and you know, on the one hand like out oftwenty two: that's that's a significant amount right. The there's, on the other hand, there'sa lot of a lot of lot of road doover for Dan Shire, so yeah yeah I've got ofpaling that you know made me term the way that Josh is going to be bugging mepestering me on stuff, like they begane to go for you to finish this car. So Ican you know finish this chapter in the book. You know we're going to hang. Isit so yeah but, like we said it's going to be a longroad, but that the thing that I'm totally certain of is that we are thatwe are illuminating the path as much as possible. You know so that, for me, isjust a matter of you know. Just you know putting one step. You know onefoot in front of the other. You know- and I know for sure that eventually youknow I'll rich to go. You know that that's that's the certain yeah and to use a terror metaphor. You know it's! The nine of so sorry,the nine of wands and the ten of Ans, it's the the ten of lands, is kind ofthis feeling of. Oh, my God. This project is so huge. It's you know it'slike. Will it ever be done? You know. Yeah you've got five cards already, butthere's so much left to do not to mention once once the twenty two cardshere are done. Then there's this whole, you know totally other project ofbuilding the rest of the deck and what's going to go into that and allthis stuff, you know and then all the logistics and on that, but the nine,the night of ones, is the strength. It's the determination to focus onindividual chunks right, you break it up. You do one thing and you celebratethose milestones and you celebrate those victories because they arevictories. You know the wether you get along. We were talking about Nana Rimoa little bit into. I don't know. I think that would have been before westarted, recording, which is this national novel riding months and thegoals to write sixteen hundred words a day. That's it, you don't have to writea whole. Fifty thousand word book in a month. Well, you do, butyou do it chunk by chunk right, yeah, steaking of milestones, yeah. Wedefinitely have the intention of showing to the backers regular. Youknow, updates on the progressional the campaigns and showing it either via. Idon't know the stringing videos in which the fourof US connect and engaged with the communitythat I'm sure will be before me around this project and showing an okay. Thisis the last. You know car that I my Gal managed to finish, or you think youknow and the next one will be. You know I don't know peasecod on this card and to try tokeep teaching the people to see people engaged. Also, more importantly, tokeep me engaged and keeping motivated is ye, like you said you know like if Idon't see this project in terms of...

...little mi Sol and little victories,then I'm going to get totally overwhelmed and I'm going to feel thatit's never going to be over and and I've ready relies that the previouslyin each single card, you know, I remember you, know Greg some one pet,sometimes like I really felt Agrati and said. Okay, howare you going with the food cars? And now you have a Finis Jack Wow? You know you know, and I warking on on detailsabout- I don't know the reach of the cabin or or whatever, and I I'm feelingyou know I never it's never going to be over. I need like two more weeks. Ineed two more months and then some long point to this magic. A moment whenyou see all is it's coming together.Everything is coming together. You know it's, it doesn't look like craftanymore, it's really it's Raly to get in somewhere and then you see and say:Oh it's over. You know like yeah. I only need to Ave my signature done. Youknow the end yeah. Something happened along the way like like just a littleto something that was intended to be part of the of the of the car that, forsome reason or other, was included, and you know that's one one was I I reallyyou know said: I'm not going back with it. You know this is one and, let's youknow next yeah well and you guys are also puttingout a lot of not a lot. I shouldn't say a lot, but areasonable amount of updates, so so updates on kickstarter one of thosethings that everybody does differently and Yeah I've seen you know a hugearray, the there's there's some decks or somewell mostly. I back tarade and other stuff like that, but some projects ontake start of that. A back that have you know in the course of their entirecampaign. Six updates there, you know, there's other onesthat are a little bigger projects and they've got a lot more involved. This one in particular, is the dull deGreen kick started that happened this summer. Twenty updates and then there'sand then there's my terabe. I have eighty five updates which a little obscene, but a lot of it, was like status checkand like what's going on. Why is this take me so long, and you know talkingabout this printing issues that I talked a little bit about, but yeah just totally understandable,especially if, if you run into those kind of logistical problems whichRightlie I said now can go, we won't get us not. We just want to yeah theupdates right now that I'm ambitioning are just the ones in which we can show the community or show the backers orprogress not just to give like excuses like Oh, you know we, we are getting delayed because of this, andthis and this hopefully that will not be to the case. You know, althoughobviously I'm human you know like well a a I'm still waiting for the mother shipTaller for me to to retort to tell the rustic know. I was yeah from theseelite nobility of Holocenter, and I was sent here for some God. Forsakingreason. But now, like I mean hopefully I will not. Hopefully I will not getsick or will have any kind of like really important setbacks that will,you know, hinder my progress of the project and yeah yeah after November,and the tile carroty will be my number one concern outside of still writing for the daily Rals, whichis you know the was say, the Bas work, as can being alive, exercise, know yeah in secondary. You know, but yeah, Ohman, I know I know how it goes yeah. I know how it goes, but no, I honestly dohave the utmost confidence in you and your ability to do this,because clearly, you've already showed with these cards that you have. Youknow more than what it takes to knock this project out of the park and withyou guys, as a group and and your ability to pull this off. I think Ithink it will. You know I'm not an optimist. Usuallyin this situation. I'm very optimistic. You know I'm I'm. I so glad that youguys have already hit your goal and you...

...have almost a hundred and forty percent.At this point you know and there's there's more than two weeks left, so I would not be surprised if you guys. Iwould not be surprised if you cross two hundred percent by the end of this thing. You know,there's there's some projects that you know there's some projects out there thatshoot for a goal of five thousand and end up with two hundred and fiftythousand. You know what I mean. I mean it's. Obviously it's different foreverybody, but you are. You are over the Hump as they say yeah. I told theguys. You know that, for reasons of my mom of my own, I want to reach. I don'tcare about the money anymore, but I want to reach three hundred and thirtythree backers right, yeah re, because that's a very special number for me fora variety of reasons. So, if I get to reach three three three and thisproject is golden. Well, you heard it here. Folks, if youlisten to this, you should click on that link on description, check out theproject. Look at these gorgeous cards just stare at them and then put yourmoney where your mouth is and back the project, because it is very worth itand I think I think everybody that gets one of these decks is going to be. Youknow more than satisfied. I certainly know I will be thanks: Yeah Yeah, Yus, any finalthoughts or anything else. You want to kind of cover before we close it out. Man, I'm just constantly consistently humbled to then part ofthis project, and I really can't lay just see where it goes like. We have an idea,you know we have. We have a map, but we haven't crossed the territory yet. Soit's going to be interesting to see what happens for sure, exactly yeahyeah, I'm waiting to see what kind of surprise is the project has in storefor us. I'm really humbled beyond words. How the response has been so far. Youknow like. I felt I fear that the project will be received, a lot ofscorn and synesis M, but that has hasn't been the case at all. He hasreceived. You know respond from even people that surprise me, you know evenpeople, I thought that they will mock, is kind of like cross between what some people think is. You knowuphole some people like they have a very, not some balty conception of what your false so are supposed to be,and there's also he be Sotherin, and you know sometimes people in that field. They they don't really have aninteresting in looking into what what what's happening in Eupolis. So one ofthe goals of the project for shore is to try to create those bridges betweenthis different and I don't believe there are different disciplines, andactually you know believe that ethology has a mystical background and you know Magic Esoteric obviously has an originin this thing that we now call ufos of flying souse. You know everything isseen to connected and this approach that we're taking, which is differentfrom the things that the people at the forefront of ethology are advocating.For you know they want. You know like more resources and they want to sciencebeing more involved and we're getting some of that right now, if you're.Looking to the news, you have people like we love and you know the head ofNASA saying. Well, you know yeah, maybe ufos are not bullshit. After all, youknow, and and that's well and growth, but there'sjust one aspect right, like the the left side of the brain is not enough toinorder to comprehend the totality of Vireo or phenomenon, and we all in thegroup. We felt that we needed to give more attention to intuition andcreativity when looking into the youth ofphenomenon- and I this definitely is right- brain project looking into ourocine in a creative, intuitive subconscious kind of way, time tounlock something within that the the dormant fine part of our minds. Youknow, and- and I feel that that is what we're trying to bring to the table withthese love letters to you, pology yeah.

No, I think very well said it's. You know, I think, there's acertain you know you're talking about showing it to people and sort ofexpecting more scorn or or whatever, there's a very distinct level of maturity that you guys areapproaching this project with that. I think it comes out as being very classyand very respectful. I think, of a these people, but you know be also thefield of ethology and see people's experiences different people'sexperiences throughout the ages. So it's it'swonderful work and I'm very very happy to be here to kind ofwatch it unfold, because this is something special and it willdefinitely be in my regular rotation of tarade for reading and stuff. So where can people find you guys start with Miguel? I guess where canpeople find you well that from the I started campaignand all that and there's also viol, the daily gray? Do you tol you dot, tally,well, com? That's where that's where I became the red bill on you right. Youknow like that's where the cane becoming visible in the Barnoma blokes phere,and that's where I am still a regular contributor, a writer newsadministrator. But I also have my own personal web page observed by the signcom, which is kind of like my gallery s. You know links to the interview such as these and a few on afew occasions. I share my two cents on a Veri viret in of Issus and, of course,yeah yeah. I I've been been fortunate enough to get regular invitesin podcast. Like you know our friends or I as what is: Where did the road goor writing Mysterio? So on things like that, you know so yeah, I'm sure if you,if you Google, repel junk you. Hopefully the first thing that shows upis my stuff. Instead of some stupid right wing, you know not fucker yeah nokidding yeah and I guess real quick. Just to reiterate, you mentioned thekickstarter for anybody who just wants to type it in there. There's going tobe like all this stuff in the description, but kickstarter projects,a ufo Tero S, V, Dash Eupholus Tero, we'll get you right there and and Josh. Where can people find you Joshua Kuchen Com, Joshua Cutchin? Ipop up: Where do the road go from time to time and yeah I'll be hanging out with withthese fine folks and Fason? A very, very important bookin the history of Ethology will be released. Yeah, you say soon, I yeah, so I have five books either bymyself or with one of my colters Timothy Runner and I'm completing I'vegot about three or four chapters left a Oh yeah that yeah. But it's me they're the eastchapters like ten to twelve thousand workers, so yeah they're chuckychapters, but closing rounding the Horn so to speakon a two volume work. Looking at the paralell and death, basically unpackingthat lovely an streber quote about ufos Witley. This has something to do withwhat we call death so that I'll be coming some time I would imagine springof next year, because I I think I didn't member crushing, I think I canfinish by the new year so and then it all the other stuff so yeah almostthere, you got a title for it, yet yeah, ecology of souls, a new mythology of death in theparalell. I, like that, that's cool who yeah awesome. Well, thank you guys, both forbeing here and thank you to the rest of your group for working on this amazingamazing project. Yeah. That's all I got, I think, heythanks for giving to a really appreciate it all ready, we'll have agood rest to nightthe. THAT'S gonna! Do...

It for this episode of the Green Line,podcast a very special thank you to McGill Romero, a k red till junkie andJoshua Cutchin, and to all of the ethology terror team. They've come along way already, but until no number thirty. First, you have a chance tosupport the Tistar campaign and pledge for one of their euchologion majorcontent. She gave Linkin the show now and it's always not on for now.

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